C3. The Big Bang and the Big Picture – Conversations with Atheist,
Vince
Vince is an atheist who
posts this website, “http://home.pacbell.net/skeptica/introduction.html“
The first position Vince
holds is that the Big Bang Theory is just another bogus Creation Myth. He writes:
The purpose of SPACETIMER’s Page is to provide the public with reasons to be
skeptical of Big Bang cosmology. Why do this? Big Bang supporters have been
presenting a cosmology to us that is incredibly absurd. For instance, they tell
us that the entire universe arose from an infinitely hot and dense region, much
smaller than an atom. Can this be described as anything but absurd? There are
scientists who don’t have a problem with describing our universe, or some
aspect of it, as being absurd. Well, there was a time when the observed paths
of the planets, with their apparent retrograde motions, seemed to be quite
absurd. This visual absurdity was the result of the primitive, egocentric
practice of placing the Earth at the center of the cosmos. Was Nature absurd
then, or was it peoples' understanding of the situation that was absurd? This
is the premise that I work with: We will always have a choice between
either an absurd Nature, or peoples' view of Nature being absurd. My study of
the history of science has taught me that Nature is never absurd, but peoples'
ideas about Nature often are. Besides
the absurdity of the whole thing, it is my view that Big Bang cosmology is the
sophisticate's creation story. The expression Big Bang cosmythology is
fitting. For whenever I dug deep into an aspect of modern day cosmology, I
discovered that the real history, combined with reasonable logic, doesn't provide
for a kind view of the whole affair. Rather, it seems to be a massive
pandering to the prejudice of a culture brought up on the belief of a creator
who created us, and the entire cosmos. For much more on this point click here.
Note
added July 2000 after some conversations with others:
Although
I am one of several people who critique the Big Bang for its creationist
aspects, this does not necessarily mean that an infinite non-expanding universe
is atheistic. Atheism is much more compatible with a universe infinite in time
and space. Yet, most peoples' view of God is of an infinite being. It seems
likely that an infinite being would want something to do during his (or her?)
infinite existence. Wouldn't His creation also be infinite? Does it really make
sense that he could be content with himself (or other gods?) for all eternity
before He decides to create a universe? An infinite universe and an infinite
God are quite compatible concepts. This site is only a threat to those who hold
to a view of a special creation event whether it is 10,000 years ago or
10,000,000,000 years ago.
RESPONSE FROM NASAMIKE
The First Cause must be Eternal because Nothing can come from Nothing. There must be something in existence already from which new stuff can be derived. My only question is whether that First Cause is “Personal” or “Inanimate”.
Before we consider that question, let’s ask if the Universe is Finite or Infinite in Space and Time.
If the Universe is Finite, then we must ask, “What could possibly exist outside it?”
If the Universe is Infinite, then we ask, “How can we prove that anything is unbounded?
Today Scientists, who study Astronomy tell us that everywhere they look in Space, everything is moving away from us; and those things that are farther away are moving away faster. Such an observation could be explained if the universe and everything in it were actually on the surface of an expanding sphere. This sphere would be the fabric of the universe and nothing would need to exist either inside nor outside this expanding fabric. Such a condition would allow for a Finite Universe with Nothing, including Nothingness itself, outside.
Conversely, if we try to imagine an Infinite Universe, we cannot. We cannot identify something so as to consider it, until it is bounded. For the universe to go on and on does not allow for there to be any communication across the breadth of it, since there is no definable size. If we get to the end of something, then we can know how big it is. But, if we never get to the end, at what point do we jump to the conclusion that there is no end? So, we have no logical way to prove that our universe is infinite. But then, the only reason to think of it as infinite would be to avoid the question, “What is outside of it?”.
Given all this, I see the observable universe as being literally “In the Mind of a Thinking Creator Being”. Just as I can imagine a 2D universe in my mind, which is finite, but expanding on a spherical fabric, this Creator Being can imagine our 3D universe expanding on a spherical fabric. This concept would support the universe we observe as being finite and as one that had a beginning. It would have begun when the Creator started to imagine it, and it could have started in any form that He imagined. And, it would come with its own timeline. (There once was a time when we had no time; and then God created our universe and we had our own time.) What this does, however, is to push the logic that demands an Eternal, Finite First Cause, back beyond the observable universe to this Creator Being.
If the First Cause were a being and not something inanimate, then it is more logical that the Universe is finite. This is because a Creator being must be knowledgeable of the entire universe; and if the universe is infinite, then that is impossible by definition. Along this line of reasoning, this finite universe would indeed have nothing, including nothingness itself, outside of it, because the Creator Thinker imagines it that way. This is where the concept of orthogonal dimensions helps to explain what we sense is happening in our own minds. Our thoughts are dimensionally separated from our physical being. We physically exist in 3D, but we visualize our thoughts in 2D - One dimension lower. So, if everything we are imagining is in this 2D universe in our minds, then there is nothing 2D outside of that universe. If all this is actually happening in the “Thought Domain”, then we have one explanation that works, for which we can observe it working in our own minds.
I suggest that this is a better explanation than one, which requires an Infinite Universe, but how would we ever know if either explanation is correct?
Consider the value of Prophecy. Prophecy is written or spoken statements of future events that were by no means guaranteed to happen that way, yet ultimately did. According to the Internet:
Prophecy, generally, describes the disclosing of information
that is not known to the prophet by any ordinary means. In religion, this
is thought to be a divinely inspired revelation
or interpretation.
Although the concept is found throughout the religions of the world, the term
has found popular acceptance through the work and influence of the Hebrew prophets.
If you were to find a source of a statistically incredible amount of prophetic information, which was shown to have come true in specific detail as foretold, you would need an explanation. Could it be that Time Travel is the explanation? If one could go back in time to make such predictions, could they not also kill their parents; so that they would never be born to go back in time? Time Travel within our dimension is paradoxical. It would certainly require someone, who is outside our Time-Space dimension to have this capability. But, don’t you see, that that is exactly what is possible in the thought domain?
Each of us can indeed know the end from the beginning regarding our thought worlds, because we can decide to think of events in that world in any time order we like. We literally can know what we will decide to think of next. We are literally outside the time of our thoughts. We exist in a higher order of dimensional Space-Time (ie 3D versus If we can do this in 2D, then our 2D). The Creator of our 3D universe must exist in some higher order dimensional Space-Time universe, if indeed He is creating us in His mind. He is outside the time of His thoughts; knowing our End from our Beginning. As such, only our Creator can prophesize our future with 100% accuracy. As stated over 100 times in the Bible, God says in effect, I will tell you what is going to happen, so that when it does, you will know that I am God. Accurate prophecy is the singular proof of a Creator God or of anyone who claims to be His messenger.
Let’s summarize what was presented thus far:
There must be some First Cause which is a universe unto Itself, from which all else is derived. The First Cause must be Eternal and Singular.
It must have no beginning since nothing can come from nothing.
It cannot have anything outside Itself or It would not be the First Cause.
It may be Infinite in Space, but we’d never prove that.
It may be Finite (ie bounded in Space), but then we have to explain why nothing exists outside of It, by using the concept of Higher Order Dimensions.
If we consider that all this is happening in the “Thought Domain”, then we can draw analogies from what we can experience directly in our own minds. Without fully understanding how it works, we know we can imagine a universe in our minds that is of a lower order of dimension than we exist in. This universe we envision is finite and has nothing, including nothingness, outside it. It exists in whatever form we imagine it and it last as long as we continue to envision it. Hence, the existence of such a Thought Domain within ourselves is evidence that the First Cause could indeed be another “Personal” Being existing in a higher dimensional Space-Time universe unto Itself and literally creating all we sense in His Mind.
So, where we can never comprehend Eternity (no beginning and no end), there is no need for us to have to comprehend Infinity (unbounded in Space). Something (ie the First Cause) must be Eternal. However, nothing has to be Infinite in Size. We must merely acknowledge that there are higher orders of dimensions than our 3 of Length, Width, and Height. Thought is something, which transcends such dimensional boundaries. It is possible to reside outside of an entire Space-Time universe, peering into it from a higher order of dimensions. We can literally do this in our minds, so we have observational proof that it is possible. It is therefore easier and more reliable to extrapolate this observable fact to a Thinking Creator God, than it would be to default to an Infinitely-large Universe that does not have to have any outside.
Couple this with the statistical evidence of Biblical Prophecies fulfilled and the paradox of time travel within our three dimensional Universe, and you can believe in a Personal Creator-God with more confidence than you can believe in any alternative.
ON THE QUESTION OF
TIME:
Vince also holds that Time is Absolute and Relative, but never Universal
http://home.pacbell.net/skeptica/time.html
Abstract
The author
elaborates upon a materialist view of the absolute and relative nature of time
in a simple and (hopefully) clear manner for what has always been a complicated
subject. Albert Einstein's relativity of time is defended against those
who think of time as a universal absolute that extends beyond its proper
frame--the inertial frame. The inertial frame is clarified and elaborated upon
to show why the scale of time is naturally, through
RESPONSE from NASA Mike Oct 27, 2008
I define, “Absolute Time” as merely the Separation of Events,
regardless of how anyone might be observing them separate. I distinguish
Absolute Time from Relativistic Time, which is what this author is talking
about, ie how an observer measures objects in motion indeed depends on the
relative reference frames involved and how they are moving with respect to each
other. Yet, all this is happening and that fact demands that events are
being separated over some absolute time.
Albeit
Science cannot comment on the question of Origins, let’s agree to say there
must be a First Cause, which Itself is Eternal. Eternal means It has no
beginning and no end. This is not what is meant by Infinite, which means,
without limits. The First Cause can (and I suggest that It must be)
Eternal and Finite. I suggest that there are other dimensions for which
the First Cause can have Length, Width, Height (ie Volume and tangible
substance), and be eternal, yet have nothing outside Itself, including nothingness.
We’ll never prove this, but here’s how I see it working:
In my mind, I
can indeed imagine a universe that is as big in length and width as I like and
yet it has nothing outside itself.
I can always
make it bigger. I can visualize it because it has only two dimensions
(2D), like a movie screen image, and my mind has 3D. Now consider a God
with more than 3D, Who can thus imagine in 3D. This would allow for our
3D universe being literally in the mind of that God. I say that that God
actually has at least 5D and that He can therefore imagine in 4D or 3D or 2D,
but that is not the point here.
Given
Absolute Time, this First Cause, God, is moving through this time regardless of
anything else ["Absolute,
true and mathematical time, of itself, and by its own nature, flows uniformly
on, without regard to anything external. " (Capek, 1973, p.
393)]. Everything and every thought associated with this God requires
Absolute Time to happen. This God can not go back in Absolute Time.
However, He can create worlds in His mind, 4D or 3D or 2D worlds and He can
move His thoughts through the timeline of those imagined worlds. This is
what is meant in the Bible when it tells us that only God can accurately
predict the future events. He is merely stating in advance, what He will
imagine later. It is this very unique capability that distinguishes the
Real Creator God from anything that He is imagining. This is why the
ability to accurately prophesize has always been the criteria for believing a
messenger is speaking for God.
My
conclusion on this matter is that the entire universe we sense is literally in
the mind of a God, Who is imagining it in a dimensional space that is of lower
order than He, Himself exists in. As such, we can understand better why we can
describe our observations of the events He is imagining, better, if we allow
our Time to be Relativistic.
Einstein
postulated that “the Speed of Light (in a vacuum) is constant, regardless of
the reference frame. Consider that what we sense as “Light” is directly
related to the “Thoughts of our Creator God”. He is imagining what we
sense, instantaneously. We cannot sense any time delay at all for His
thoughts to move across His Mind (ie our universe).
This is an
artifact of the extra dimensions that the Creator must have, compared to any
creatures He is imagining.
In summary,
if we try to understand our observations without including a Thinking God as
the First Cause, we will never get it right.
RSVP
NASA Mike
October 27, 2008
For
more on this and a response to any questions, please email any comments to, “michael.a.comberiate@nasa.gov”